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CONCEPT INTRODUCED IN 1978 BY PSYCHOLOGIST PAULINE ROSE CLANCE AND SUZANNE IMES. IT’S DESCRIBED AS A FEELING OF SELF-DOUBT, OF PROFESSIONAL FRAUDULENCE, AND IT’S OFTEN ASSOCIATED WITH WOMEN IN THE WORKFORCE. BUT DOES IMPOSTER SYNDROME ACTUALLY UNDERMINE WOMEN AND MASK REAL SYSTEMIC ISSUES? SHERRY DUNN IS THE AUTHOR OF A NEW BOOK. IT’S CALLED QUALIFIED HOW COMPETENCY CHECKING AND RACE COLLIDE AT WORK. IT’S SO NICE TO HAVE YOU IN STUDIO. NICE TO BE HERE. CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHAT COMPETENCY CHECKING IS? COMPETENCY CHECKING, BASICALLY, IS THE WAYS IN WHICH BLACK PEOPLE AND WOMEN AND OTHER PEOPLE OF COLOR ARE REQUIRED TO PROVE THEIR KNOWLEDGE, SKILLS AND ABILITY AT A HIGHER, HARDER BAR. MORE FREQUENTLY THROUGHOUT THE COURSE OF THEIR CAREER, THEY HAVE TO VERIFY WHY THEY’RE IN LEADERSHIP. THEY HAVE TO JUSTIFY THEIR KNOWLEDGE. AND WE OFTEN TALK ABOUT THE PIPELINE BEING EMPTY, BUT REALLY, COMPETENCY CHECKING IS A BLOCKAGE IN THAT PIPELINE. THIS MAY NOT BE A POPULAR VIEW, BUT I DON’T KNOW THAT I BELIEVE IMPOSTER SYNDROME IS A THING. YOU KNOW, IT’S FUNNY THAT YOU SAY THAT BECAUSE WHAT I HAVE FOUND IN TALKING TO FOLKS IS THAT WOMEN OF COLOR DON’T REALLY HOLD TO IMPOSTER SYNDROME AS MUCH AS WHITE WOMEN DO, AND THERE ARE REASONS FOR THAT. SO THE INITIAL STUDY ON IMPOSTER SYNDROME WAS FROM 73 TO 78. SO THAT’S A FIVE YEAR PERIOD OF TIME WHERE WOMEN, SPECIFICALLY WHITE WOMEN, ARE UNDERGOING THE TECTONIC CHANGES IN AMERICAN HISTORY. RIGHT. TITLE NINE IN EDUCATION COMING INTO THE WORKPLACE. AND THE STUDY SEEMED, IN MY OPINION, TO MISIDENTIFY THE IMPACT OF COMPETENCY CHECKING AND SYSTEMIC ISSUES ON THEIR FEELINGS OF SELF-WORTH AND TURNED IT IN ON THEM, THAT THEY FELT LIKE A PHONY, THAT THEY HAD A PERFECTIONIST ISSUE. BUT THE STUDY DOESN’T TALK ABOUT ANY EXTERNAL FACTORS. IT’S LIKE THE WOMAN EXISTED ON AN ISLAND FOR FIVE YEARS, AND INSTEAD OF SAYING, HEY, WE MIGHT BE RESPONDING TO SYSTEMIC ISSUES, WE MIGHT BE RESPONDING TO BEING THE FIRST WOMEN IN A PROFESSIONAL WORKPLACE AND HOW THAT MAKES US FEEL. THEY CALL THEM IMPOSTERS. OH, I SEE, SO IT REALLY IS LIKE FOISTING THE BLAME ON INDIVIDUALS AS OPPOSED TO SAYING, HEY, THE SYSTEM YOU’RE IN MIGHT BE PROBLEMATIC. WHAT DIFFERENCES HAVE YOU SEEN IN YOUR REPORTING AND YOUR WRITING BETWEEN WOMEN AS A WHOLE AND WOMEN OF COLOR? WOMEN OF COLOR REALLY TEND TO IDENTIFY THE ISSUES CAUSING THEM HARM AT WORK. SO WOMEN OF COLOR TEND TO SAY, HEY, I’M THE ONLY BLACK WOMAN HERE. I’M THE ONLY LATINA HERE. I’M THE ONLY ASIAN WOMAN HERE. I AM HAVING TO DEAL WITH COMPETENCY CHECKING. I AM HAVING TO ANSWER MORE QUESTIONS. I’M HAVING TO DO HARDER PROJECTS. THIS IS WHAT IS STRESSING ME OUT. I DON’T FEEL LIKE AN IMPOSTER. TO YOUR POINT, I FEEL LIKE PEOPLE ARE HARASSING ME SO THEY TEND TO IDENTIFY THE FACTORS AND THEY ARE MUCH MORE OPEN TO COLLECTIVE ACTION. BUT WHAT IMPOSTER SYNDROME DOES IS IT REDIRECTS A LOT OF WOMEN, BUT PARTICULARLY WHITE WOMEN, TO FEEL THAT THEY HAVE TO DO SELF-TALK, AND THEN THEY ARE LESS INCLINED TO DO COLLECTIVE ACTION TO CHANGE WHERE THEY WORK. THIS BOOK IS WRITTEN AT AN INTERESTING TIME WHEN DEI HAS BASICALLY BEEN KILLED AND OR DYING ON THE VINE. I’M CURIOUS WHAT YOU HAVE SEEN IS THE IMPACT OF THE DEATH OF DEI ON THIS IDEA OF COMPETENCY CHECKING, OR ON THE IDEA OF IMPOSTER SYNDROME. AS A FORMER PRACTICING ATTORNEY, I DO HAVE TO SAY THE LAW FOR AFFIRMATIVE ACTION AND WORKPLACE DIVERSITY HASN’T CHANGED. BUT THE PUSHBACK SEEMS TO BE MUCH BIGGER THAN DIVERSITY, EQUITY, INCLUSION. THE PUSHBACK SEEMS TO BE ROOTED DEEPLY IN MISOGYNY AND ANTI-BLACK BIAS, AND A CONCERN ABOUT BEING OVERRUN BY DIFFERENT PEOPLE IN SPACES. HOW DO YOU SOLVE THE PROBLEM OF COMPETENCY CHECKING? WORKPLACES CAN AUDIT THEMSELVES AND DIG DEEPER AND ASK WHO SUCCEEDS HERE AND WHO DOESN’T? WHAT ARE THE PROFILES OF THE PEOPLE WHO WE ARE PROMOTING? YOU CAN SEE THAT RIGHT FROM A DATA PERSPECTIVE. AND THEN WHEN IT COMES TO WOMEN, WE CAN SAY, YEAH, SOMETIMES WE ALL FEEL INSECURE, BUT THERE ARE SOME SYSTEMIC ISSUES THAT WE NEED TO WORK TOGETHER TO DEAL WITH. WE HAVE COLLECTIVE POWER, AND WE’VE BEEN SENT SKITTERING IN DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS AS OPPOSED TO TOGETHER. THE BOOK IS CALLED QUALIFIED HOW COMPETENCY CHECKING A